Legislature(2005 - 2006)BUTROVICH 205
01/25/2006 03:30 PM Senate RESOURCES
| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| HB251 | |
| HJR17 | |
| Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| + | HB 251 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | HJR 17 | TELECONFERENCED | |
CSHB 251(RES)-COMMERCIAL FISHING MULTIPLE PERMIT HOLDER
CHAIR WAGONER announced CSHB 251(RES) to be up for
consideration.
REPRESENTATIVE RALPH SAMUELS, sponsor of HB 251, said it would
allow the Board to assign additional fishing privileges to those
who hold two permits in a commercial salmon fishery. The point
is to let the debate take place at the Board of Fisheries where
all the interested groups can have their input.
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS gave an example of how owning another
permit would work in a fishery where someone is already allowed
to fish two shackles of gear. The Board might say that he can
fish three permits since he already is taking gear out of the
water and increasing the efficiency of the entire fleet. "The
goal is to try to make more efficient use of some of the permits
that are not being used right now." This measure is supported by
the Commercial Fisheries Entry Commission (CFEC) and others.
3:36:44 PM
SENATOR RALPH SEEKINS arrived.
SENATOR BERT STEDMAN asked if this concept would allow someone
to own multiple seine permits in multiple areas.
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS replied that the Board of Fisheries could
debate that issue if it chose to.
3:37:19 PM
CHAIR WAGONER explained that they are basically considering
stacking permits in one fishery, not all of them.
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS also pointed out that line 5 says the
Board may allow a person who holds two entry permits for "a"
salmon fishery to engage in the fishery.
SENATOR FRED DYSON asked if it would allow two different
individuals who held a gear license to fish on a single boat
with three shackles of gear.
CHAIR WAGONER answered no, they are restricted to the number of
set shackles per single boat. You can't fish two permits on one
boat.
3:39:00 PM
SENATOR DYSON said it seemed to him that allowing two permit
holders to fish on one boat would attain the same goal if one
bought or transferred the permit to the other, as long as the
boat is limited to some additional increment of gear, but not
twice as much.
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS agreed that the end result would be the
same.
3:40:13 PM
CHAIR WAGONER asked if the Board of Fisheries could grant that
option if this bill passes.
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS replied that he didn't have a problem
with inserting that amendment.
3:41:00 PM
SENATOR BEN STEVENS arrived.
PETER THOMPSON, Kodiak fisherman, said he held a Bristol Bay
salmon permit for 19 years and supported HB 251. He related that
the salmon industry has been in an economic disaster for the
last five or so years and everything that can make it more
economically viable should be tried and consolidation is a
concept whose time has come. He explained that Bristol Bay has
1,857 drift permits, which allows 5,571 shackles of gear. If
only one-third of the permit holders stacked a permit either
with another permit holder or one individual with two permits on
a single vessel, it would take 1,240 shackles out of the water
reducing the net by 22 percent. That would be equal to
eliminating about 70.5 miles of drift gillnet in Bristol Bay.
MR. THOMPSON said he had a petition signed by 31 Alaskan Limited
Entry permit holders in support of this tool.
3:44:54 PM
SENATOR SEEKINS asked if the signatures had residences in Kodiak
or just a mailbox.
MR. THOMPSON replied Kodiak residences.
3:45:49 PM
ROBIN SAMUELSON, Dillingham, opposed HB 251 and said its scope
needed to be narrowed. Bristol Bay has lost 50 percent of
resident permits since 1973. He thought that the current system
of allowing permits to be owned by one person was good enough.
"What you're hearing here, Mr. Chairman, is those with the most
money are going to survive in this fishery. It's a way of life
out here - our fishery." He said the buy-back program is dead
because of the permit stacking is allowed.
CHAIR WAGONER asked if he thought the diminishing number of
permits owned by residents was due to taxes or sales to other
sources.
MR. SAMUELSON replied that it was probably a combination of
both. The cost of participating in the fishery is also rising.
It all has a cumulative effect.
3:51:40 PM
SENATOR DYSON asked if there are times during early and fall
fishing when two guys could fish more gear off one boat that
would be helpful to local folks.
MR. SAMUELSON replied no, because most of the processors are
full enough running for hatchery King Salmon either in Prince
William Sound or Southeast and the fall fishery has all but
dried up. However, they are trying to institute village co-ops
with small processing plants to help keep the economy going.
SENATOR DYSON asked if the processors were there in the fall,
would that make it more economical for the local fishermen to
fish two permits with two people in one boat.
MR. SAMUELSON replied possibly, but processors are gone by
around July 25. Last year, one buyer stayed after that and
bought coho from all the river systems. They were processed in
Naknek.
3:53:55 PM
ANDY GOLIA, Dillingham, opposed HB 251 saying that permits are
already leaving the region and this measure would result in more
non-residents using more gear.
3:57:34 PM
PETER ANDREW, Dillingham, said he had been fishing in Bristol
Bay for over 25 years and opposed HB 251. Fishermen are already
faced with lack of processing capacity. Most limits were 8,000
lbs., but the guys who were stacking got 10,000 lbs. "I've been
in the village and I don't think this is working for our local
folks."
CHAIR WAGONER asked if permits were being stacked last year.
MR. ANDREW answered that this was the second year stacking was
used, but it's not working favorably for the local people.
4:00:01 PM
MARK EDENS, Homer, said he had fished commercially there for 30
years, but both he and his son would love to fish in Bristol
Bay. He already has a boat and would buy a permit, but he cannot
secure a market and he viewed that as the main problem with that
fishery.
STEVE TUTT, Homer, said he is a Bristol Bay fisherman and has
seen the dramatic positive effects of this "fishermen-funded
buyback" in Bristol Bay. Although he understood the local
fishermen's point of view in that they don't want to lose
anymore permit holders, he supported existing permit statutes
and regulations governing this issue and didn't think adding to
them was in the best interests of the local fishermen. He
opposed HB 251.
4:04:10 PM
KONRAD SCHAAD, Homer, said he has been fishing in Bristol Bay
since the mid-80s. He supported HB 251 because it eliminates
permits and makes the fishery more profitable for the people who
remain in it.
4:07:30 PM
KURT KVERNVIK, Petersburg, said he has fished in Bristol Bay
since 1985 and supported HB 251, because he thought it would
benefit the fleet up there. Over the last five years, he could
have bought a permit for $20,000 and now they are up to $80,000.
The price isn't being driven by people stacking their permits
over the last couple of years. It is happening because of larger
runs and higher prices. He sympathized with the Dillingham area
residents losing permits, but didn't think that the measure in
HB 251 would affect that.
RICK WILLIAMS, Petersburg, said he is a Bristol Bay fisherman
and supported HB 251. He thought having less gear in the water
is important and it's better to have four shackles on one boat
than two boats with three shackles each.
4:12:24 PM
FRANK HOHMAN, Commercial Fishery Entry Commission (CFEC),
clarified how the two permits concept evolved. He said the
Commission supported HB 251 because it gives the Board another
tool to assist in fleet consolidation. He related how four years
ago, in the discussion about fleet consolidation in Bristol Bay
because too many boats and people weren't able to make a living
and the price of salmon was down for a lot of other reasons, the
board looked for a way to make operations more economical. The
Legislature granted the board the authority to allow one permit
holder to hold two permits, but the second one couldn't be
fished. The object of that was to remove one permit from the
fishery using the funds of its participants. Additional state or
federal funds would not be used. This way worked for a couple of
years although only a few people took advantage of it.
Two or three years ago, the Board of Fisheries adopted a
regulation that further allowed two permits on one vessel to
fish an extra increment of gear, but this required two people
each with a permit to be on board. The incentive for doing that
was to be able to fish a little extra gear. This was another
attempt to consolidate the fleet and reduce fishing power. Taken
to its extreme, it would reduce it by about two-thirds, because
the second permit could only fish one-third of the gear.
HB 251 is a further refinement of this concept and allows one
person on a vessel to fish an extra amount of gear. It
accomplishes the same thing as Senator Dyson mentioned of
removing a permit from the fishery.
He emphasized that the Board of Fisheries would have to receive
a proposal from the affected fishermen and have extensive public
hearings before adopting it. This bill doesn't cause that to
happen in itself.
4:17:13 PM
SENATOR ALBERT KOOKESH said that Bristol Bay fishermen use
shackles, but Southeast Alaska seiners use one net and he asked
how that two-permit holder concept would work on a seine boat.
MR. HOHMAN answered if the same fishery in Southeast felt this
tool would be beneficial to them, those fishermen could take the
proposal to the Board of Fisheries for a hearing and that's
where the gear issues would be discussed.
4:19:43 PM
SENATOR KOOKESH asked how many people are on the commission and
if they formally vote on bills.
MR. HOHMAN replied that CFEC has three commissioners and they
didn't vote on bills. They had just finished the two-year
Bristol Bay Optimum Study that helped them realize this would be
a useful tool. The study indicated that the range of permits
should be at 900 - 1,500 from approximately 1,850 permits.
4:23:13 PM
CHAIR WAGONER asked if this bill would apply to all fisheries.
MR. HOHMAN replied that it could apply to any salmon fishery.
4:23:32 PM
SENATOR BEN STEVENS asked if the board adopted regulations that
allowed two individuals on one vessel to have extra gear
allocation or was that authority given by the legislature.
MR. HOHMAN replied that the board was able to adopt that
regulation, because it had to do with the amount of gear that
could be used.
SENATOR BEN STEVENS asked if the board already had the authority
to adopt this regulation now since it had already given a vessel
the authority to increase its gear amount.
MR. HOHMAN replied that while the board has the authority to
allow two persons on one vessel to fish extra gear, it doesn't
have the authority to pass a regulation allowing one person to
have two permits and HB 251 allows one person to have two
permits.
SENATOR BEN STEVENS asked if the legislature approved the
authority for an individual to hold two permits without
increased gear allocations.
MR. HOHMAN answered yes.
SENATOR BEN STEVENS asked further if the Board of Fisheries
wrote regulations saying if two permit-holders are on a single
vessel, that vessel has increased gear allocation.
MR. HOHMAN indicated that was correct.
SENATOR BEN STEVENS summed up question asking, "The question is
does the board have the authority to do it for one person or one
vessel or is it two persons and one vessel?"
MR. HOHMAN replied, "The board does not have the authority for
one person and two permits.... That's what this legislation
would do."
SENATOR BEN STEVENS countered, "But it was interpreted that the
board did have the authority to give one vessel two permits with
increased gear?"
MR. HOHMAN responded, "Because it was a gear allocation - is my
understanding."
SENATOR BEN STEVENS said he thought the board might already have
authority to do this since it has already authorized an
increased gear allocation to a single vessel.
4:27:23 PM
CHAIR WAGONER said that inquiry would be made and asked if
stacking permits was an action taken by the board or the
legislature.
MR. HOHMAN replied that it was an action by the board.
4:28:51 PM
SENATOR BEN STEVENS asked how many vessels have two permit-
holders on board.
MR. HOHMAN replied that CFEC didn't have good information on who
participated in that way in the last year. He explained that a
fisherman can hold two permits, but the second one can't be
fished.
4:31:02 PM
SENATOR BEN STEVENS commented that realistically the only group
that would be affected would be the 26 individuals who own two
permits in Bristol Bay. So, that would be the group that would
petition the board for additional time or areas, which it hadn't
done. He wondered why the following items in HB 251 on page 1
were inserted:
(2)at additional times or in additional areas; or
(3)under other conditions as the board considers
appropriate for the conservation, development, and
utilization of salmon fishery resources."
CHAIR WAGONER responded that that inquiry would be made.
4:31:56 PM
SENATOR BEN STEVENS cautioned the committee that this measure
would create separate times for individuals who have stacked
gear versus regular gear versus set net gear and might be
presenting the opportunity for "a real snake fight to start
here."
CHAIR WAGONER assured the committee that the bill wouldn't move
today.
4:32:20 PM
SENATOR SEEKINS said it appears to him that AS 16.43.140(c)(5),
which is referenced on line 5, would override the proposed bill.
It says: "A person may hold not more than two entry permits for
a salmon fishery under this paragraph. The person who holds two
entry permits for a salmon fishery may not engage in fishing
under the second entry permit."
MR. HOHMAN agreed and added that's why the "notwithstanding"
phrase was in there - because there is a prohibition.
SENATOR SEEKINS said he couldn't see any prohibition for two
permits to fish off the same boat. He asked Mr. Hohman if he
knew of one.
MR. HOHMAN replied, "Not to my knowledge except for what you
just mentioned."
4:34:45 PM
SENATOR ELTON said he sees this as adding a tool for the Board
of Fisheries to use, but the legislature always hears concerns
from coastal economies about migration of permits out of the
region. He asked Mr. Hohman in his judgment, what would the net
effect of the concept in HB 251 be on the migration of permits.
MR. HOHMAN replied that it's a hard call. He presented a little
more background on limited entry permits saying that the
legislature created them to be freely transferred. To encourage
Alaskans to retain their permits and to provide them with
incentive to purchase permits, the state, because a limited
entry permit cannot be used as collateral with any lending
institution, created a loan program that allows individual
Alaskan residents to borrow money at a favorable rate. The
Division of Investments has loan programs and arrangements with
regional groups to try to help keep permits in the regions by
providing assurances and loan guarantees. This tool will allow
the board to have the ability to put conditions on a permit that
would allow consolidation of the fleet and, in theory, should
increase the average earnings for the individuals still fishing.
The safeguard is that any proposal to do this must come before
the board that would have to analyze the fishery to determine
whether it would allow the consolidation and have to take
extensive public testimony. Coupled with the state's programs to
assist residents, he thought this would be a positive measure in
fleet consolidation.
4:41:53 PM
SENATOR ELTON asked what kind of deference the board gives to
the socio-economic consequences of the changes they allow to
fisheries.
MR. HOHMAN replied that conservation is a key element, but the
socio-economic aspect is important also.
4:43:07 PM
SENATOR BEN STEVENS asked how many entry permits are in the
salmon industry in the state.
MR. HOHMAN replied 10,000.
SENATOR BEN STEVENS pointed out that there is participation in
this particular instance by only 44 individuals.
4:45:03 PM
MR. HOHMAN explained that CFEC does an annual study of permit
movement by fishery he offered to get that study for the
committee.
4:46:03 PM
STOSH ANDERSON, Kodiak, supported HB 251. He pointed out that it
wouldn't change the allocation between the drift fleet and the
set net fleet. Adding this authority to the Board of Fisheries'
tools would help it achieve the optimum number of permits for
the benefit of people who participate in the fishery. Economics
would help determine the level of participation rather than an
arbitrary decision.
CHAIR WAGONER announced that he would hold this bill for further
discussion.
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